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How Japanese People Really Talk (ね、な、ぜ、ぞ、さ、っす、 あたし)

A message from patron Mirnes Selimovic-sama asks me:

Would you mind explaining (or making a post) about the personality differences on people who use ね、な、ぜ、ぞ、っす and あたし? I would love to know what “type” of people use these, and what (maybe a bit too stereotypical) connotations are attached to each.

I’ve heard many times what each mean, but I still don’t “get” them. Like, for example あたし is supposed to be cutesy, but I’m confused who would use it, since I was under the impression people in Japan try very hard to fit in and/or not to draw too much attention. Of course this is a stereotype, but since I have very little real world references, these stereotypes (unfortunately) still dominate my mind.

Stereotypes are difficult things. I see why the books say what they do – they give some indication, but of course anything one says is a generalization and indicates a tendency rather than a “fact”. And if one isn’t very careful to hedge what one is saying, one ends up giving false impressions.

Also, there isn’t exactly “one Japan”. Even Japanese people will to some extent have differing views of what is normal depending on their age, region, circle of acquaintances etc.

For example, I have been told by Japanese people “no one really uses that” only to later run into someone who does.

Though of course there are some generalized differences between Japanese and American or European or Chinese or other culture.

So with the caveats in mind, let’s take a look at these expressions.

ね – everyone uses it. If there’s a Japanese person who doesn’t use ね I’ve never met her. From those who use it sparingly, maybe only 50 times a day, to those who use it like a verbal tic five times per sentence, everyone uses it. A lot.

I’ve discussed the cultural reasons behind the heavy use of ね in this video. Essentially it is a sort of lubricant; a way of assuring that we are all in harmony and agreement.

な – I also discussed this in the video above and if you are interested in it I would recommend watching it. I think just about everyone uses it. The idea that it is “rough” that you sometimes see in English explanations is very misleading. It is so much a vital part of the language (marking expressions directed – literally or “dramatically”) to oneself that it would be hard to avoid. I have even argued that it works like a quasi-particle when it is embedded in a clause. For example

やさしいな と 思(おも)った
(spacing added for convenience of beginning readers)

Which means something like “How kind*, I thought to myself”. The な here, I would suggest, is not a direct quote, but a marker indicating that one thought it to oneself.

The idea that it is “rough”, as I explained in the video, really refers only to substituting な for ね – that is, using it where the more usual pattern would be to use ね. This does have a rough feel for reasons I explained in the video. But な itself is commonly used and perfectly natural and neutral, so characterizing it as inherently rough is very misleading.

ぜ and ぞ generally speaking masculine expressions. Rough-ish but not necessarily in a “bad” way, could be just a bit boisterous/sporty. I have heard varying opinions on whether they are “really” used, which presumably means they are but not among most groups.

In my experience they tend to be used by boys who pick them up from certain anime (where they are used a lot more). However, I suspect there are sections of the population – male market workers or something (pure conjecture) – who do use them all the time.

In the expression

行くぞ!

It can be used by just about anyone on the right occasion. It means “ok let’s go!”, “let’s do this thing!”

What is used much more often as a casual sentence ender is さ. This also has a somewhat masculine feel but it can be used by women and girls.

How often you hear it depends completely on what company you are in. In many (probably most) settings one doesn’t hear it at all, but I have been in places where it was used by some speakers in about half the sentences they used.

Often used by schoolboys – but that is where I was most exposed to it. I would expect there are other groups who use it. Where I have heard girls use it they used it less, and I think because they were around boys who used it a lot and picked it up a little.

Its meaning is broadly like よ and it can be used more like ね. Probably because it is informal it is less clearly defined I would have said. It tends to lend strong-ish emphasis but can also become so habitual that it is little more than a verbal tic.

っす is masculine. I haven’t heard a female human use it. But there are very few rules without exceptions here. (I even met a girl who called herself おれ). It is a shortening of です (or sometimes ます). It is a little odd since it is a formal usage made informal.

It kind of pays respect but roughens it. This is something that some men do on some occasions – say, to a senpai in a sport club where you want to acknowledge seniority but not sound stiff and formal.

It can tend to get popped onto the end of a sentence where you wouldn’t really use です – a bit the way Suiseiseki popped です onto everything.

あたし – yes, it is used. As for Japanese people not wanting to stand out. Well, it’s complicated. There are ways in which they don’t and ways in which at least some people do. Even those who do may not have the same pattern of stand-out desire or behavior as Western people.

It is worth noting in the language that standing out is not necessarily thought of as bad (not in all ways, there are ways in which it is).

For example, 抜群 (ばつぐん) which is made up of kanji meaning “remove/extract” and “group/flock” has a wholly positive meaning of “outstanding”, “better-than-most”.

A very common word for “great”, “admirable” is 偉い (えらい). The kanji is made up of two elements, the left-hand one meaning “person” (it is a squidge – to use the technical term – of 人) and the right had element meaing “different”, as in 違う (ちがう).

Slight digression, but I think relevant. I have seen lolitas in all kinds of places, not always in groups, not always in cities (even in tiny country places). I would say they get much less negative attention than they might in a western country. They certainly stand out!

This is not to say that the idea that Japanese culture is conformist or that Japanese people don’t like standing out is untrue. It is true but doesn’t always work predictably.

(And on a side-note I would say that very few Western people really want to stand out except in ways that are already group-sponsored, as it were.)

However, back to あたし. Japanese people have a choice as to how they say “I”. For men and boys in particular a choice is forced on them. 私 (わたし) in non-formal circumstances sounds over-formal (for males) and possibly a bit effeminate**. So they have to go for either ぼく or おれ either of which is making some kind of a statement about themselves. What that statement is, is covered in layer after layer of cultural implication and of course varies in each individual case.

あたし is baby-talk for 私 (わたし) which might make it sound rather extreme and affected. But remember that ちゃん is actually baby-talk for さん and everyone uses it. So much so that they had to invent たん to represent the talk of an actual baby.

Girls can use わたし, あたし, or their own given name (which is even baby-er). After a certain age the second two become increasingly unlikely.

It is not super-uncommon for girls to use ぼく though certainly not usual, and as I found out, they do sometimes even use おれ.

And I would add as a final note that they won’t necessarily be as consistent in their usages as fiction often depicts them as being. It is a convention of Japanese fiction to give characters identifiable verbal characteristics. Particularly in novels, this helps us to identify who is speaking without its being explicitly stated, but it carries over into anime and manga.

This article first appeared on my private Patreon feed. A lot of material starts out there and much never gets published elsewhere. If you would like to become part of this thriving learning and creative community (as well as browse other public posts, please visit me there)

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Notes:

* やさしい means kind/gentle. You may also have heard it meaning “easy”. It can mean either but the two have different kanji 優しい: kind/gentle, 易しい easy.

** There is a charming comic moment in the anime 君の名は (きみのなは) where a girl who finds herself inhabiting the body of a boy in a different part of the country refers to herself as わたし. There is a stunned silence while the boy’s friends stare at “him”. Panicking she says

わたくし?

This is the much more formal variant of わたし and of course a move in quite the wrong direction. She then tries ぼく but it turns out he is an 俺男
(おれおとこ – ore-using male).

Desu-masu Japanese and why you SHOULDN’T use it

Most textbooks and schools teach desu-masu Japanese (teineigo) from the beginning.

This is a bad idea because desu-masu is not basic Japanese structure and it leads to a number of confusions about what basic Japanese structure really is. You can easily learn to put basic Japanese into desu-masu form once you have learned it. But learning that form first is learning upside-down.

This video shows exactly what goes wrong when you learn desu-masu first and how to avoid it.

Dolly Dialogs – Japanese output: communicating in Japanese

Japanese output: how to communicate in japaneseCure Tadashiku: You have always said that in order to learn Japanese you need to use Japanese, and that means communicating in Japanese, not just having massive input of anime, novels and such.

However, learners seem remarkably loath to do that. You’ve discussed the reasons for that, but the fact remains. How do you suggest tackling it?

Cure Dolly: That’s right. Well, look, if people don’t want to communicate in Japanese, that’s their affair. Many people spend endless time on English-language Japanese forums. Essentially, if that’s what they want to do, if that’s where they get their fun, who am I to complain?

I don’t think it is a good use of time if you really want to learn Japanese (rather than learn about Japanese), but all I am here for is to offer my advice. After that it’s up to the individual to do what she wants to do.

Cure Tadashiku: But you have tried to make ways for people to use Japanese – notably the KawaJapa Forums and now the new Line Group. You seem to be especially interested in the latter at the moment.

Cure Dolly: I think the problem with the Forums has been essentially a critical mass problem. Because only a minority of Japanese learners seem to want to (or reach a level where they can) interact in Japanese, the demand for such a forum is not high, which presumably is why there aren’t other all-Japanese learners’ forums online.

It is quite possible that once people do reach a high enough level, if they are actually interested in using Japanese they move on to online interaction with actual Japanese people, as you and I have done. However, I still think there might be a place for interaction with other second-Mothertongue speakers, partly as an easy entry for beginners (interaction beginners, not Japanese beginners) and partly because we do have things in common that we might want to discuss (which is why there is such a lot of English-language forum activity).

A rather bigger site than ours started such a forum a while back and abandoned it from lack of participation. Ours keeps going in a quiet way, but the problem is that someone comes, is quite enthusiastic, but because not many people are there, understandably moves on. Occasionally a small community starts to form, but it will only be two or three people, so when one of those people gets busy or goes on vacation or something the group dissolves. We don’t reach a critical mass where an active self-sustaining community is formed.

The Forum still works well in its quiet way. We have quite a few visitors per day and it rarely stays quiet for more than a day or two. But it hasn’t reached critical mass.

Cure Tadashiku: So what about the Line group. Do you think it can break this pattern?

Cure Dolly: We’ll see. I think there is a chance that it could. Line interaction is more casual. You can post a picture, say a word or two, share a link. You can have real-time chat if people are there, or slow-motion chat if they aren’t. Importantly, it doesn’t need many people. It is a format ideally suited to a small handful of participants. It may grow, but it doesn’t require critical mass in the way a Forum does.

Cure Tadashiku: So might it eventually replace the Forums

Cure Dolly: Probably not. They work differently and the two may end up complementing each other. A Line group is not an ideal medium for laying out ideas in detail or having an in-depth discussion. Those things want their own thread and a more permanent location. People may well do that on the Forum and link to it from the Line group. We’ll have to see how it all evolves.

Cure Tadashiku: It is certainly an interesting experiment and I have to salute your tenacity in an area where no one seems to have made a lot of headway!

Cure Dolly: You’d be welcome to join the group too you know (-o⌒)

Cure Tadashiku: I don’t have a keitai, and honestly I am less involved with non-native Japanese speakers (as well as non-Japanese speakers) these days. So I guess I am part of the problem. I think there are those Japanese learners who really want to stay based in English, and conversely those who really move into Japanese and out of the foreign-learner circuit altogether.

Speaking of which, how do you see your future in these terms? I know you want to become a writer in Japanese eventually. I know you thought you would never do another English book and then you did Unlocking Japanese.

So where do you see yourself going in the long-to-middle-term? Will you continue to support the Forums, Line group etc? More broadly, will you go on blogging in English? Do another book in English?

Cure Dolly: I don’t know. Really I don’t. A community may form via the Forums and Line group(s). If so, I guess we may grow together. So far the Line group is attracting people who are pretty darn serious and really want Japanese as a second Mothertongue, I think. That being the case we are likely to grow in Japanese together and stay friends in Japanese.

As to the rest, I did Unlocking Japanese because I realized that I (with the help of you and others) had discovered some really important things about Japanese that no one else has ever put into English – things that can be extremely helpful to Japanese learners. In some ways they revolutionize Japanese learning. For that reason I felt I had to do a book. I would have been failing in a duty not to lay out these discoveries in usable book-form.

I continue to discover more so there may be another book at some point. For the present I continue contributing to this site. I don’t guarantee to do it forever! I really am not that interested in working in English, but I do want to help people tread the same path. I want to share what we have learned. But, yes, there is probably a limit to that.

Cure Tadashiku: So if people who are not dedicated second-Mothertongue people want to join the Line group?

Cure Dolly: Absolutely welcome. So long as people are wanting to interact in all-Japanese we are happy to welcome them. At some point, if it all expands, we may form different groups. If it doesn’t expand, that’s fine too.

Cure Tadashiku: Thank you.

Cure Dolly: Thank you.

Links

KawaJapa Line Group
KawaJapa Forums
Unlocking Japanese

Help! Rikaisama Not Responding! A simple fix.

Sometimes Rikaisama just stops functioning. It is still there but hovering over a Japanese word doesn’t invoke the usual pop-up box.

Turning Rikaisama off and on again doesn’t help. When it restarts you get the Rikai startup message, but when you hover over a word, still nothing happens. The only way to fix it seems to be quit and re-start Firefox, which is pretty annoying.

Fortunately I have found that in almost all cases the cause is quite simple and can be solved easily without re-starting Firefox. There may be other cases but nearly all the time this works for me.

What has happened is that Rikaisama has gone into Super Sticky mode (probably because one inadvertently pressed the shortcut key while hovering). In this mode boxes don’t go away after you move the cursor, but they also don’t appear on normal hover. You have to ctrl-click or alt-click in order to get the pop-up.

So the answer is simple. Ctrl-click or alt-click to get the normal box, and while the box is displayed, press the Super-sticky shortcut key (U by default) to toggle back to normal mode.

Unresponsive rikaisama

A simple fix for a rather annoying Rikaisama problem!

Not sure what Rikaisama is? Find out here!